[BLML] LOOT

Sven Pran svenpran at online.no
Sun Jun 10 07:59:19 CEST 2012


> Robert Frick
> Again, there is an OLOOT by a misinformed defender, with LHO then putting
> down his hand as dummy. The OLOOT is retracted. Now what? I think...
> 
[Sven Pran] 
Rubbish. 
Where in Law 54 do you find any possibility for the (misinformed) defender
to retract his OLOOT? He cannot. Law 54 is a specific law that applies on
OLOOT. If there seems to be any conflict with other, more general laws on
lead out of turn then Law 54 takes precedence.

But if you with OLOOT mean that the defender has placed his card face down
(not faced) on the table then no opening lead has been made (by this
defender) and presumed declarer has exposed all his cards during the auction
so Law 24 applies.

> 
> 1. While the player who put down his hand as dummy *was* the "presumed
> declarer", his partner is now the presumed declarer. So the OLOOTer is on
> lead.
>
[Sven Pran] 
More rubbish.
If the OLOOT was indeed made then it cannot be retracted once presumed
declarer has accepted it, for instance by facing his cards as dummy, and the
"OLOOTer" Is no longer on the lead, he has made his lead, period.

> 
> 2. I am going to rule that L16D applies to his sight of the dummy. So the
> OLOOTer pretty much has to lead the same card.
> 
[Sven Pran] 
Still more rubbish.
Either presumed declarer has become dummy (L54A) or his cards have been
exposed during the auction (L24). In neither case is L16D applicable.

> 
> 3. Spreading his hand was not a rectification. As defined, only the
director can
> do rectifications. So... the player who was supposed to be declarer can
> display his hand and become dummy before the irregularity is noted. After
> the irregularity is noted, he cannot do this.
 
[Sven Pran] 
Sure he can, just read (and understand) Law 54A

> 
> None of the laws are exactly what I would like to make these rulings. But,
> compared to other situations the laws were not built to handle, this seems
to
> be a relatively trouble-free way to get to a good ruling.
> 
> Bob
> 
> 
> On Sat, 09 Jun 2012 08:33:39 -0400, Roger Eymard <roger-
> eymard at orange.fr>
> wrote:
> 
> > I have not found anything in the Laws which says that the lead remains
> > to the OLOOTer after she retracts her faced lead. IMHO, not only L47E.1.
> > would be meaningless if not to give back the opening lead to the normal
> > opener (normal opener is defined in L41A as the defender on presumed
> > declarer's left, and (presumed) declarer is defined in the definitions),
> > but it would be in sheer contradiction with  L45C.1. to allow the
> > OLOOTer to retract her faced lead and to lead another card.
> >
> > Cases where a player may retract of her own free will a played card and
> > then play another card without further rectification result always from
> > the play of a card by an opponent. The spreading of her hand by the
> > (presumed) declarer is not the play of any card.
> >
> > Isn't the meaningfulness of each Law, and the coherence of all the Laws
> > together the touchstone for applying them ?
> >
> > So, am I right , in such a case of OLOOT suggested by declarer's side,
> > followed by presumed declarer spreading her hand, to allow the OLOOTer
> > to maintain or to retract her lead, and, if she retracts, to give the
> > lead to the "normal" opener, who will lead with full knowledge of now
> > dummy's hand ?
> >
> > Roger
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Frick" <rfrick at rfrick.info>
> > To: "Bridge Laws Mailing List" <blml at rtflb.org>; "Roger Eymard"
> > <roger-eymard at orange.fr>
> > Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 4:00 AM
> > Subject: Re: [BLML] LOOT
> >
> >
> >> You ask for advice. But your analysis is stunningly sophisticated.
> >>
> >> I would add this to your scenario -- if declarer spreads his hand and
> >> becomes dummy, and the OLOOTer puts his card back in hand, who is on
> >> lead? I think the laws say it is the player who just led out of turn.
> >>
> >> It doesn't seem right to allow this player to change his lead once he
> >> sees the dummy (former declarer). So a question is how to get to that
> >> ruling. I am happy just jumping there, but I seem to be a really small
> >> minority on that. I too cannot think of any way to get there using the
> >> laws.
> >>
> >> Thanks.
> >>
> >> Bob
> >>
> >>
> >> On Fri, 08 Jun 2012 04:52:46 -0400, Roger Eymard
> >> <roger-eymard at orange.fr> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Hi all
> >>>
> >>> After a LOOT suggested by declarer or her partner, declarer spreads
his
> >>> hand.
> >>>
> >>> L54A : "After a faced opening lead out of turn, declarer may spread
his
> >>> hand; he becomes dummy. If declarer begins to spread his hand, and in
> >>> doing
> >>> so exposes one or more cards, he must spread his entire hand. Dummy
> >>> becomes
> >>> declarer."
> >>>
> >>> Does that apply if the LOOTer was mistakenly informed by an opponent
> >>> that it
> >>> was his turn to lead ?
> >>> IMHO yes, because there is no provision in the Laws saying that L54A
> >>> applies
> >>> only in case of spontaneous LOOT.
> >>>
> >>> L47E.1. : "A lead out of turn (or play of a card) may be retracted
> >>> without
> >>> further rectification if the player was mistakenly informed by an
> >>> opponent
> >>> that it was his turn to lead or play. A lead or play may not be
> >>> accepted by
> >>> his LHO in these circumstances."
> >>>
> >>> Is the LOOTer allowed to retract her card, therefore giving the lead
> >>> to her
> >>> partner with the full knowledge of dummy's cards ?
> >>> IMHO yes, because the spreading of her cards by declarer is not an
> >>> acceptation of the LOOT, hence not forfeiting the right of the LOOTer
> >>> to
> >>> retract her card.
> >>>
> >>> In summary, both contestants are at fault (L74), L23 may apply against
> >>> declarer's side if the choice of becoming dummy is advantageous, but
no
> >>> restriction applies to defenders if they benefit of the choice of the
> >>> leading side with the full view of dummy.
> >>>
> >>> Am I wrong ? Thank you for your advice.
> >>>
> >>> Roger
> >>>
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> >>
> >>
> >> -- The end of one day is always the start of a next. *
> >>
> >> *This offer expires Dec. 21, 2012
> >
> 
> 
> --
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> 
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